TMC Interviews… Out At Lunch: Alisa Arnah and Emma Brogen talk parents, coming out and Cambridge gays

by Sticky Toffee Pudding

It’s been a fair few weeks since I told you all about ‘Out At Lunch’, Emma Brogen’s docu-baby into the foray of lesbian acceptance at Cambridge University. An honest and heart-warming film, Emma explores themes of identity, expectation and friendship against the splendour that is Cambridge, with her sister Alisa Arnah directing the way. I caught up with Emma and Alisa  to discuss their motivations and inspiration behind the documentary.

What inspired you to make this film?

Emma: I had the idea quite randomly whilst watching a concert or something and I just sort of suddenly thought  it’d be nice to have a meal  with my gay friends to mark graduation and to invite our parents because they’d never really met before and almost straight away I thought, ooo we could make a film of that.’

And how did Alisa get involved?

Alisa: Well around the time we started filming in 2008 I’d produced a couple of shorts but wanted to move more towards directing and when Emma called me up and told me about the meal, before she’d even mentioned filming I thought right away that we should film it.

So did it seem like quite a logical idea to you both?

A: I wouldn’t say logical as much as it was a really interesting scenario, as from my point of view it wasn’t really personal. I just thought ‘wow that’s really brave’ and I thought that other people would find it interesting.

E: Yeah, the initial idea was kind of ‘oh wouldn’t it be fun to film this meal’ but actually as soon as we started talking about it, it became not really about the meal but much more about the girls and their experiences. We wanted to explore that moment just before you graduate, where being gay at university everything has been comfortable for the last three years and your whole life is about to change and you’re going to have to go out into the real world.

Do you think being Cambridge students challenges the realism of your film in its relation to the average lesbian?

E: I think it’s maybe two sided in a positive and negative way. Some people might not feel that it reflects them because it’s such a select group but then I think if you tried to make a film that reflected every lesbian experience it would be very long and far too varied. It’s not a film that says this is what its like to be a lesbian, but rather this is what it’s like for these lesbians. And I think there is stuff in there that people can relate to, if not perhaps all of it.

A: I think it was really important that we didn’t set out to make a film that was, like Emma said, all-encompassing or some sort of definitive version of what it’s like to be gay at that age. That definitely wasn’t our intention and I think it would be very presumptuous for us to say that we know exactly what it’s like. Rather we just wanted to portray very personal experiences and personal stories and I do think people can relate to them in some way. I also think that Cambridge has a lot of mystery and to film the every day life that people who go there take for granted is very interesting.

You don’t actually film the meal, nor do you interview any of the parents, why is that?

E: We decided not to interview the parents primarily because we didn’t think they would be comfortable with the process and I don’t think that was necessarily because it was a gay documentary but more so to do with just not wanting to be on camera.

A: I think also it would have been a very different film as well. We’re not trying to show every side of the situation or make a film that reflects everybody’s experience. Rather what we’re trying to show is what it’s like for a very specific group of friends and what I found interesting was the range of different experiences amongst a group of ten friends who are pretty much all the same age and come from very similar backgrounds. I guess the parent vs. child experience would have been very interesting but then it would be a different film.

As sisters was it awkward working together?

A: Actually it’s been brilliant; at least it has for me. I don’t think I could have done the amount of work that was needed to finish the film with anyone else. We have that thing where we kind of know what each other is thinking instinctively and we don’t have to necessarily talk things out which is really useful on set because in an interview situation you’ve got to be quite sensitive so it’d be quite useful if you can sense what’s important.

E: I think also if I was doing this with someone who wasn’t my sister I’d have this continuous worry as to whether I was talking too much or being too annoying and worry about what I say, but with my sister I’ve spent my entire life fighting with her so by this stage it’s like I can say anything!

A: And that’s been really useful because it has been very stressful at times so it’s been great that we can actually just sometimes take that out on each other and then 20 minutes later it’s all forgotten about. It’s worked really well for us.

So Alisa how did you feel when Emma came out?

A: It was pretty strange as growing up I thought of myself as someone that was very open-minded, I had friends that were gay and I’d never stigmatised them or anything, they were just my friends. But when Emma came out it suddenly felt quite different, not in a disapproving way but looking back I now realise I kept thinking that it was going to pass, like it was a phase or something she was going through, or perhaps she’d been influenced or there was some other reason for it other than the fact that she might just be gay.

E: But I don’t think you ever showed it and you were quite supportive because obviously parents find it harder to accept and Alisa was always really great. I could talk to her and we could joke about it together and she never showed any concerns.

A: Yeah, I think it just took me a really, really long time, like five or six years to get to the point where I wasn’t even questioning it or examining it.

E: Which is the point where I’m at now which is like actually it’s a great thing! I’m not like oh I’m gay and now I’ve accepted myself, but rather being gay is great why wouldn’t I be gay!

A: Definitely. I think if you came home with a boy I’d be…

E: As shocked as me!

A: And that’s another reason for me making this film. I think a lot of families find it hard to accept and not because they’re necessarily prejudiced, but rather they still have preconceived ideas of how difficult life will be and they wonder what’s happened, what’s gone wrong. But that’s not the case at all and it’s wonderful that people know who they are and what makes them happy and I hope this film can work towards helping people to realise that coming out doesn’t necessarily mean all those terrible things they think it means.

At what aged did you come out?

E: I think for someone like me who realises quite young, coming out is quite a staggered process. I think there’s coming out to yourself and I was probably about 13, then there’s coming out to your closest friends and I was probably around 15. Then there’s coming out to your family and maybe a slightly wider circle of friends and I was 17 I think when I told my mum so that’s when my family sort of knew and then I was 19 before it was the sort of thing I would tell someone happily upon first meeting them.

Do you think that university played a part in that process?

E: I think for people who realise at university the process can be a lot faster from when they first realise to them exploring their sexuality and ending up in their first relationship and telling all their friends and family. For me it did kind of accelerate when I got to uni. I took a gap year and during that time I came out to most of the groups I worked with but it was something I did gradually. So I’d maybe tell the person I trusted most first and then I’d tell someone else so that by the time I told people I was worried about telling I already had like five people that were ok with it. At uni I soon found myself just telling people if it came up in the first conversation even if I hadn’t met them before because I was suddenly in an atmosphere – and especially in Cambridge – where no-one was going to react because no one really cares and it’s not a big deal and you’re friends with loads of other gay people. And it’s completely different to being at school as a teenager in the countryside when you don’t know a single other gay person.

Was it difficult making a film about your friends?

E: I think being friends with them made it easy on one level because we didn’t have to go looking for people to film and they were happy to do it because they knew it was important to me. It also made the interviews quite relaxed I was always in the room so there was no awkwardness. Also I don’t think I would have found many people who would have happily sat down and talked to the cameras so honestly if I weren’t friends with them. But it also made it slightly harder when it came to the structuring of the film because you care both for your friends and the film and so you’re thinking almost in with two minds as to what would be best for the film and trying to balance that with what would be best for my friends. You can’t just say I’m going to do what I want and I don’t care what people think because they are your friends and you respect the trust that they’ve given you and you want to make sure that they’re happy with the outcome.

Were there any surprises?

E: I think they weren’t so much surprises because I knew all the girls really well and I did know all their stories beforehand, but rather there was more emphasis because a one-on-one interview is such an intense situation and although I knew the stories I hadn’t heard them in that way so it hit me a lot more strongly and it wasn’t like a shock but rather it really hit things home that I’d maybe not thought too strongly about before.

A: I think for me and our director of photography we were both really taken aback about how moved we were by these people that we didn’t really know. Particularly Tanya our DP, she had never met any of them before and it was a very intense situation and the girls were unbelievably generous with their honesty and just telling us about the things they had experienced. There is a universal theme of being accepted by your parents and being accepted by society and I think everyone can relate to that.

How would you categorise the theme of the film?

A: I think for me it’s discovering who you are and not being afraid of going out into the world as that person. In this particular place it’s about people realising their gay and wanting to be in a relationship with a woman and then having the courage to not be afraid and go out into the world saying this is who I am but I think it’s something that anyone can relate to and we all go through times in our lives where we begin to realise who we are and have to embrace that. It’s not always easy to go out into the world and I think that’s what this film is about.

What are your plans for distribution?

A: We’ll be focusing on film festivals both internationally and in the UK probably until the end of 2010 and we’ve already secured our international premiere at the Mumbai International Queer Film Festival in April. Next year we will probably aim to release the film in cinemas and on DVD, perhaps with a comic short we plan on shooting over the summer on the tricky subject of lesbian sexual health care. It would be nice to be on television as it’d reach a much wider audience than it would at say Art-house cinemas but we’ve really got to wait and see what happens.

What are your favourite cakes?

E: Er does a chocolate chip muffin count as a cake?

A: I’m going to go with a very traditional home made Victoria sponge.

E: It’s a shame Alisa didn’t grow up in the 1950s, really the decade was lost on her.

And finally the film  sports a scene of the girls running onto a rugby pitch in ballgowns, explain?

E: Well a lot of the girls are on the rugby team and it’s actually something the rugby team do every year at the end of the season to celebrate and sort of go a little crazy because they train so hard.

A: And it’s also a great example of one of the mad things that happens at Cambridge that kind of seems quite normal from the inside but from the outside just adds to this great history of slightly wacky things.